Official Luthiers Forum!

Are these guitars all made by hand or with CNC? Do you think CNC is mandatory if anyone wants to accept electric guitar commissions? Problem with doing it by hand, as experienced by many industries is that you can't get good consistency. Like if I want all necks to be the exactly the same within .001" it's not even possible by hand without either a pantograph, pattern carver, or CNC. That seems like a sizable investment...

In fact the link one poster gave emphasized the fact that he uses CNC to maintain extreme tolerance. When I carve things like necks by hand there are always going to be variations, and sometimes there's a fear of overcarving or sanding through something.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Why do these need to be made with CNC for accuracy and repeatability, while that's not a requirement for acoustics? This one I'm currently working on is a commission, for a friend but there was nothing in any of our discussions about precision tolerancing or geometry that necessitates the use of CNC or milling.

For the record I am looking to go in that direction for some operations but not all. I'll probably still carve my necks by hand as well as make the neck joint, but I guess I don't understand why you're placing such limits on requirements for making electric guitars. If one were to go into anything other than small scale production it would make sense to bring in modern production methods, but if you're making a few a year there's no reason you can't use routers, templates, and basic wood shop tools.

I think there are plenty of reasons for people to have a custom built electric, including being able to select materials, hardware, finish and design. I also think to play devils advocate somebody could apply the same questions you've brought up to commissioning an acoustic. It's not enough to simply claim a hand made acoustic is better than a factory built one, as it would depend greatly on how each specific guitar compared to each other. In the end, this question is better asked of the consumer than the builder, because if somebody wants to buy one, why would you want to talk them into instead buying a production model from a big factory.

Also, I disagree about a couple things. First, you've oversimplified the construction of an electric guitar. Not everyone just buys parts and assembles them. All electrics are not just simple slabs of wood that require simple two dimension machining. As much of a difference as there is between a $200 factory electric and a $2000 factory custom, the same can be true of a commission build and an off the rack purchase. Second, you're oversimplifying the skill and knowledge it takes to do CNC. For those with manufacturing experience it's part of the job. For Joe Average woodworker, there is a ton of working knowledge and practical application that somebody needs to go through to run CNC. There's code writing, fixturing, tool path calculations including tooling speeds and feed speeds. You need to be proficient with 3D modeling and visualization. I've been a woodworker for twenty years, and am currently working on an associates degree in CAD/CAM, and while my background has helped in the visualization department, much of the curriculum is just as new to me as my first day in the cabinet shop.

I don't know if I'll ever go into business doing this, but I like making them and if people want to buy them I'm confident enough in their quality to sell them. If you don't want to build them then maybe it's just not your thing and that's fine, nobody says you have to. I just think you're better off saying that than trying to make blanket statements about the care, quality, and purpose of making a commissioned electric guitar, because as I said above, at the end if the day if someone wants to buy it, why not build it?

To add to that, I personally think the most important consideration is the neck joint, and I do mine with a template. I put masking tape around my pattern bit bearing to shrink the cutout by a couple thou and then sneak up on my neck tenon with a sanding block. It's slower than CNC, but I could probably do a dozen in a day. If you get that tight, and get the neck angle right, then the rest is easily done to lower tolerance. I carve my necks until they feel right, and don't worry about whether they're exactly alike. I have a weird neck profile too so it would be a pretty complex geometry to program.

I am building an almost exact copy guitar for one of my grand-sons. I had my daughter sit him down with google and pick put any guitar he wanted and it's some off-the-wall guitar that's no longer being built, was never popular, and you would never be able to find one for sale. This is what he chose:

I don't use any CNC for my guitars. Nothing against it. I actually recently bought a CNC for purposes of making cheap Strat and Tele bodies, since, people are always asking for them I don't have it set up yet.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

I think I read somewhere that G&L is entirely produced without CNC, just templates and pin routers and stuff.

By the way G&L is what a Fender should have been built as... it's a company Leo Fender started late in his life after he got done with Fender and stuff.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

CNC is certainly not the only mass production technique. As well as pin routers/templates for Fender bodies, the factory tour videos of Gibson show duplicator machines profiling Les Paul tops 6 at a time.

No cnc, no duplicators, no blabla...only routers, bandsaw, templates and lots of handwork were used to built these, exactly like the customer wanted it. My customers are involved from the beginning to the end. Woodchoice etc...hardware
(I hate Floyed Rose)

Neck thru in solid Indian Rosewood, Vavona Burl (redwood) Top on figured Alder body Wings, with ebony fingerboard, reversed Samurai Headstock, Green purflings etc, ebony binding...

Ask Warmouth for this....

https://picasaweb.google.com/1157931855 ... ewoodAlder

Cheers, Alex

Where can you get Indian rosewood thicker than 6mm when India prohibits export of irw thicker than 6mm?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

...this wood is older than you and me together, Tai.....

which is btw also a big difference to factory guitars, my wood is really old.

Which would put me at a significant disadvantage compared to established builders or brands because I can't even obtain anything like it. Maybe a solid body guitar made completely out of African blackwood if the customer is willing to pay for it...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Yes, but nobody, or at least most of us are not born with a collection of old wood. you have to hunt and search for it. And willing to invest in the right moment.

this thread proves that many think they know things but they are still lacking knowledge.
Air dried wood is more stable than kiln dried
this is not true .
There are many different kilns but the key is at the cellular level. I have been around wood my whole life. You will never get air dried wood moisture level as low as you can with kilns. The next point is that the wood also is part of the equation. I won't even think about building with air dried wood unless it is old. I store my wood at least 3 years before I build with it. I don't buy on Monday and build Tuesday.

Wood selection is very critical , not all wood is the same.

Know your suppliers

I see a lot of peoples guitars and I never want to discourage a new builder but there are many common things that happen and are signs of inexperience. This is a hobby that will require skill and skill takes time. Many here list themselves as pros but are not actually making their living doing this. I know Hesh does and I also do.
Taking commissions for the first time can be scary but you better be prepared . Know your product and learn your customer. Many hand made guitars are at best average or below , once you do learn to make a good instrument , you can understand that your early ones were part of the learning curve. Few command a price of a Tom Ribbeke or Dale Unger ,. Wayne Henderson built for almost 50 years and he worked for the Postal Service until he retired a few years ago.
Don't take this as a critique of any one person here but it is a fact. Few will sell instruments and even fewer will make a living at this , but you should be having a good time.
There are so many myths and opinions. After all this is part ART , and art is subjective.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

BluesCreek, I appreciate your comments. As I've read, air dried that is properly old, will fluctuate less the longer it cycles through seasonal changes than kiln dried will initially. I'm sure there is an equilibrium that they both eventually find though. I certainly don't have your experience building guitars, so my question is is old air dried wood, (stuff that's often sold to builders specifically for guitar making) any more stable than kiln dried stuff you can buy at any hardwood supplier? (For the record everything I've built with has been kiln dried, but has sat in my shop for a few years before building)

Also, one of the outfits in our town that is an urban salvage specialist, uses air dry and kiln dry. They have yards stacked with stickered slabs that sit for years before they go into the kiln. This was really more what I was talking about in the first place, I don't actually know any suppliers that sell 100% air dried wood at least not in town.

Might be getting bogged down in semantics, but my original point was the wood you get from hardwood suppliers is not green.

I worked around a saw mill for years and when we kiln dried wood , a few weeks out in the yard with stickers ( air space ) to allow good air flow would only get the wood to about 20%. Brought indoors you may get about 15%,

Kiln drying on conventional kilns will take about 30 days.

our kiln started with stacked lumber in such a way to control the air flow. We would use cardboard to create baffles so we can get the air to flow evenly around all the lumber. The first week was pretty much air flow with a dehumidifier. We would set it at 50% for a few days and take readings on the wood, Then knock that down another 10% . Once we hit 40% we would turn on the heater. First set to about 80F then work up to 120F. Desiccant beds were used at this point as they can take moisture out of the air .
It was all about air flow and hear control. Once we got wood to 8% for cabinet grade we turned off the heat and let the wood aclimate. usually about 5 days.

Older air dried 90 days to 1 year didn't seem to matter much in the cycle.

The longer wood is exposed to air the more you bugs will form. If you don't sticker it , you can get mold and if in contact with the ground , powder post beetles can ruin it in a hurry.

Good suppliers will have dried wood. Exotics will also be fumigated and treated for mold and insects.

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I am struggling to follow this thread...lol, but there's good stuff said. That Les Paul from the front is pure guitar porn. (Quilted maple pocket covers on the back would be really cool).

-"this thread proves that many think they know things but they are still lacking knowledge."

Who do you address this to?

-"I won't even think about building with air dried wood unless it is old. I store my wood at least 3 years before I build with it. I don't buy on Monday and build Tuesday. "

Exactly, people ordering wood at a supplier and starting building with it immediately have not yet understood what it is about.
Anybody not having a room where humidity is controlled and kept between 38 and 42 % (35-45), AND is storing his wood which will be used inside this room, for at least a year, better a couple of years, will fail.


-"Many here list themselves as pros but are not actually making their living doing this. I know Hesh does and I also do. "

I am doing my living with building and repairing guitars, resawing tonewood, buying, slicing, resawing, kiln drying logs and lumber. The percentage of what I am doing more changes from month to month.

And yes, I am also struggling to follow this thread, I already do not understand the topic at all. And when I would not know that Tai-Fu is asking this question seriously, I would consider this question being from a troll.

Tai, are you playing electric guitar? Have you done some concerts with a Gibson and a Marshall? Or a Fender and a Twin, or something like that? If not, go out and do so....


Cheers, Alex

Alex buddy if you are confused as to what the topic of this thread is - welcome to the club!

If you guys read my first post you will see me struggling to actually pick out the question questions while attempting to not get lost in the rest...

The title implies that this thread is intended to be about "electric guitar commissions..." We all know what an electric guitar is, got that part down.... and we all know what commissions are so does the title not imply that this thread will be about contracting with a customer to either make them an electric guitar or have them make you one?

Instead we discussed or it was brought up that hand-made is superior to f*ctory made, kiln drying vs. natural seasoning, what is a Luthier, the perils of going ugly early and selling when you don't really know what you are doing, saw mills, merits of CNC, duplicators, etc. , Warmouth...., G&L, Henry at Gibson, up charges for parts guitars, John S's absolutely stunning PRSlike guitar!!!! , TGW's absolutely stunning LP, making a copy for yourself and what it takes to get sued by Henry at Gibson, constructive criticism, being rude and not caring...., and a few other things that likely will piss someone off if I mention them as I wish....

So if you find yourself lost in this thread..... me too.....

So Tai Fu what exactly is that you wish to know about electric guitar commissions and how may we be of service to you for this topic?

You know, along this same line (what ever it really is....) I've been thinking about some free form threads targeted at Thursday evenings since Thursday evenings are traditionally the slowest evening for the OLF. You guys must all be out getting drunk or smoking that medical marijuana ... Anyway since this thread has largely become about anything and everything perhaps there is some demand for this kind of thing? You know - kind of like "Thursday - What's On You Mind?" threads where it is understood in advance that the topic has to conform to the rules, have at least a few words to do with Loofierism (attribution to Duh Padma). Any takers or interest?

Tai Fu let us know what you wanted to talk about in this thread, eh? Thanks!

Hesh, thank you for putting back a smile in my face!

I don't know, I guess the whole idea of commissions are all a mystery to me because I've never taken one and not sure what customers might want. I might be a good luthier but a terrible businessman. I'm in the process of discussing commission with someone, for an acoustic guitar. My experience has been that those who asked for commissions usually wanted something cheap so they generally lost interest when I explained to them what goes into a handmade guitar.

I thought that I could never see anyone wanting a custom made electric guitar unless it was something really out there where the instrument is more of an art piece than a functional instrument (such as Emerald Guitar Works which made a guitar that looks like Aliens). Unfortunately I simply can't make a guitar that looks more like an artwork because I'm terrible at drawing, and Warmoth can make pretty decent parts with their CNC/factory/etc. so I simply can't make a strat body for 160 dollars, when body blanks go for at least 80 dollars. I guess I can better sell an acoustic guitar by offering things that factory guitars don't have, carefully hand voicing them to maximize its tone, etc. and so far I have pretty good idea on keeping wood fairly stable. I do maintain a humidity controlled area but I really do not have the money to humidity control the entire shop and work area, so I do critical things inside humidity controlled rooms such as bracing and stuff, and less critical stuff such as shaping neck blanks, bending sides, etc. in non controlled areas. So far guitars I have made have stayed good after being strung up for several months, but there's always difficulty tracking instruments that have left my care to make sure they stay good.

Woods from LMI and reputable luthier suppliers have been good if stored for at least 2 months and kept in a controlled environment. You would think factory guitars would have more problem keeping their wood stable because they move so much material at once...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I was just trying to post an example of a case where it was worth it to commission an instrument vs going down to GC and grabbing one off the wall, which is how I interpreted the question.

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

In other words, from the average customer's perspective, an electric guitar is basically an electronics package attached to solid wood which is largely irrelevant, so why spend extra money to have one made custom when they're all the same, right? What justifies in the customer's view an expensive commissioned custom instrument?

_________________
Old growth, shmold growth!

I have read somewhere off in the deep space internets, that the wood from electrics have some influence on the vibrations that eventually you will be able to hear. Is there any more data on that? Please point me in the right direction to see the research.

As for Tai Fus question, I am a amateur and can not give any experienced advice. In my opinion though, there are people who want to spend the money for custom designs, woods, colors etc. etc. so to me it may not be so far fetched to see a potential customer requesting that. I believe while the manufacturers can make some quality instruments, a handmade instruments is just going to have more care into the making of it. The craftsman should be paying attention to every detail. I may be wrong on that, but I truly believe it, not only that but the effort put into making one, in itself is implementing a part of the maker. For future reference I am a greenhorn, newbie, noob, beginner, amateur, starter, recently adjusted laborer, rookie, and whatever else you may want to add. Therefore I mean no disrespect in my comments forthwith and hither unto any ladies and sires.

_________________
久保
美智え

This is exactly how I build, John. I like to have my instruments go to musicians, but at this point they're all experiments and if I get the price of materials out of it, I'm happy. I also have asked those folks for honest feedback, and have learned from what they've told me.